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Anthony Jackson interviewed by CM Burnham

Posted: Nov 5th 2004 By: oklastaff

(Editor?s note: This interview takes an extreme behind the scenes look at Oklahoma wrestling. A "shoot interview" is one that is done from the standpoint of the "real" world and not the wrestling world. If you don?t wish to read inside information, then do NOT read this.)


CMBurnham: Thank you for doing this with me. I guess we?ll start at the beginning. Were you a wrestling fan growing up?

Anthony Jackson: Oh yeah. We lived in the country, so we didn?t have cable. So all I had access to was Bill Watts? Mid-South and then it became UWF. So that?s basically all I watched Saturday night at 10:00. And then I bought the wrestling magazines so I was able to keep up on the national scene. WWF was getting ready to be big so I got to see some of their stuff on Saturdays when they had Saturday Night Main Events and the early Saturday Morning shows.

CM: Who were some of your favorite wrestlers when you were watching at that time?

AJ: Mainly back in the UWF days it was like when Sting first started out, Ted DiBiase, Dr. Death was big back in the day, I really didn?t have one favorite. I just liked the whole scene. Hot Stuff International was great. The trash talking and everything.

CM: Did you wrestle in high school?

AJ: No, we didn?t have wrestling. We were a real small school. We had just the basic 3 sports - football, basketball & baseball, at the school I went to.

CM: So how did you get involved with this?

AJ: I was a real big wrestling fan, always loved wrestling, even went to 1 or 2 of the small shows in Tulsa. The (OPW) referee, The King (Dennis) Heflin, came into where I worked before and gave me a contact name of Rocco (Valentino). Called him up. They were doing some tryouts for a new class at OPW. Me & Bull Schmitt signed because we were close friends before we went into wrestling. We went into the class together and it all started from there.

CM: Who was responsible for your training?

AJ: Bolo did the majority of me & Bull?s training. There were actually 6 kids in the class that started out. 3 dropped out. It was me, Bull & another guy who?s probably just as big as me & Bull left at the end. He was tall as Bull, maybe my weight & stockiness at the time - but he didn?t make it. Bolo did most of the training. Rocco oversaw that, helped out when Bolo wasn?t there. Rocco did most of the psychology at the end. J. J. Mustang helped out some. but basically it was Bolo & Rocco.

CM: So when did you have your debut match?

AJ: Our debut match was March of ?98, I believe. I?m bad with the years. Me & Bull tagged up for the first time, we wrestled to Texas Outlaws. That was at an OPW benefit show at Central High School.

CM: I know that a lot of your early feuds centered on the Texas Outlaws and the tag team titles at the time. What were Texas Outlaws like?

AJ: It was the original Texas Outlaws at the time, back when the Outlaws were great. It was Dirty Dan (Wilder) and Bonecrusher Bobby (Burns) and those guys were great. Old-school type heels. They could get anybody over. People were scared of them when they came to the ring, but also razzed them. The angle that Rocco had us doing was that me & Bull were faces but we were managed by Renegade, who was a heel at the time. He thought he could show us the way. He gave us the name of the Bad Boys back then. A lot of these matches we won because Renegade interfered all the time. We?d show talent, but didn?t have enough experience to finish it off, so Renegade would interfere. I think a couple of months after we started wrestling, we got the belts through that avenue and through other controversy going on at OPW.

CM: Also, early in your career, you held a title that didn?t exist very long. The Turnpike Title. Who did you win that from? There?s no title lineage that I can find.

AJ: I can?t remember who had that title. (Thinks) T. C. Gold had the title. T. C. was the original holder of the title. Rocco brought it out to be kind of like what the TPW title is now or what the Intercontinental title is to the WWE. T. C. Gold and J. J. Mustang were feuding for the title. T. C. ended up keeping the title. He had the title when I was supposed to be wrestling him for it. T. C. no-showed a couple of shows and so Rocco decided to strip the title from him. He actually no-showed one of the shows where I was supposed to get the title from him. And this was after me & Bull had split up and Bull had become a member of Rocco?s VIP Crew with Jimmy Kane. I was going along the singles way. T. C. no-showed several times. He had his Oklahoma Syndicate there, but Rocco was tired of T. C. no-showing, so he decided to so something. There was nobody there for me to beat to get the title. (Micheal) Rock Johnson was still there and his alter-character was Leopard Man. So me & Leopard Man wrestled for the vacant Turnpike Title that night. I ended up winning it that night because Leopard Man was just a gimmick, but I think a week or 2 later, I dropped it to Dave Sullivan.

CM: What was he like to wrestle? Coming out of WCW, he was a "Big Name".

AJ: When you first meet him, you think "WCW", attitude, he?s been there and we were all just peons. Dave immediately came into OPW, took a secondary role, didn?t want in the main events. He went after the Turnpike Title. He wrestled me and we worked an angle as a conceited fitness guy (Sullivan) against the fan favorite fat boy. He had a "Piper?s Pit" kind of thing. He had his own monologue. I came out. He ended up attacking me. We had a match and he screwed me over for the title. He didn?t even want me to put him over clean. We went on a roadshow that had nothing to do with regular storylines and, he?s so down to earth, he put me over there. Just worked old-school and, kind of like Bolo, "Just follow my lead" and just go with it. And at the time it was kind of different. When I got in it was "Listen to the vets. Listen to the vets." And that?s what I did. I decided to listen to him. He didn?t have any crazy moves or spots. He was just your basic "I?m gonna choke you" or "I?m gonna hit you". And that was about it. So it was great working Dave. He had a tragic accident with his fiance? to have him leave OPW.

CM: Everything we?ve talked about so far has happened before I showed up, but when I started coming out, you were serving in a commisioner-type role for OPW. Did you get injured?

AJ: I came down with pneumonia and I had it for quite some time without knowing it. I thought that I was just overworking. I had just gotten promoted at my job. I was working a lot of hours there and thought I just needed a good nights sleep. Actually went on a company trip to Vegas and my back was hurting the whole time. But anyway, The pneumonia had gelled around my lung. Antibiotics couldn?t treat it. They had to go in and the surgeon told me later that he had my lung in his hand and he had to scrub it off. They had to go through my back. So that put my out for about 4 or 5 months. Rocco was real cool. Rocco knew that I was a wrestling fan and I loved being in the show. I think Pete (Maguire) wanted some time off or had something else going on, so Rocco let me be an acting commsioner/ring announcer just so I could keep involved in the show. I couldn?t do anything. I was out in the ring and talking smack to guys and I had chest tubes coming out of my side. Nothing disgusting. But they were there and I could have been seriously hurt. They let me do that and I had fun with that and I think it helped me get over because I had more interaction with people.

CM: People who saw you then and are familiar with you now would know that the type of promos you cut then and now are very different things. Did you get any type of coaching or were you just handed a mic and told "Go out there."?

AJ: Rocco told me some things. He told me mainly the points that he wanted me to get across at that time. You know, maybe "Push this" or "Say this one". But I guess after a while...he says, and I?ll admit, I guess my mic skills were really bad. I didn?t realize they were as bad as he said they were at first, but they were bad. But I would go out there and I would really relate. There were some regular people in the stands. I don?t know if I knew you yet, but there were 3 other guys. One guy would always dress in yellow. He would sit there. A younger guy, probably about my size. He had 3 or 4 guys that came with him and they would get pumped up and loud for all the matches. I could work with them, joke around and talk sarcastic with them and they?d get the guys around them pumped up and I guess it gave me more of a personality. I got to joke around with the guys. Like a nonprofessional ring announcer, but more like a wrestler and I think that?s why people attached themselves with me. Because I could relate to them.

CM: During that first night that I was there, as a result of a match between Snap & Big Daddy Moore that had some interference from someone I can?t remember, you set up the very first OPW Hardcore Night. Later on you became known as OPW?s "King of Hardcore". Was this your idea?

AJ: No. Rocco?s idea was the Hardcore night, because hardcore wrestling was getting big. That was when ECW was making it really big and guys just wanted to do hardcore at the independent level and have fun with it. Rocco let me announce it and then we kept doing it because it brought in fans. We weren?t dead like wrestling is nowadays, but we wouldn?t have the building quite as filled up as normal in the summer when it started. When you announced Hardcore Night, everybody came. So more or less, as the commissioner, I got to announce it and so I became known as the King of Hardcore. That was all Rocco?s idea. Some of the matches down the road, I had an idea for some of them. I got to shoot them by Rocco.

CM: When you got back into competition, you and Bull teamed back up. Was it easy to get back in the groove with him?

AJ: Yeah, when me & Bull came out... We were best friends. Rocco put us together as best friends in the story line. We had some great matches. I remember one match we had, right after we won the tag belts. We had been champs for a few weeks, Renegade kept interfering and they stripped us of the titles and they had a tag team tournament. And in one of the matches we wrestled was Body Count. This was one of my favorite matches. Most of my favorite matches aren?t rated by me on what goes on in the ring, but how they are reacted to by the people. Me & Bull clicked really well together we didn?t do crazy moves like guys do now, but we were known for doing big moves. So we?re wrestling Body Count, who is known for the biggest and most vicious moves, and some of our wives told us that they saw other wrestlers coming out to watch the match, kind of like Rocco?s cage match but not as hyped. We split up for a while after the tag tournament, and then, when we got back together, I?m trying to remember the situation. WWF was in town, Rocco was just throwing together any kind of matches because the crowd was small - like only 125 or so. Me & Bull talked about working together again because he?d turned around and become a face again. We tagged that night and I think it was about 1/2 full at Riverlanes, but the response was so overwhelming when me & Bull did it that we decided to do it again. I wanted to be a legit tag team. You had the Outlaws that was known forever, you had Generation X. I thought we could do the Bad Boys. We could travel around and be known - just like the other guys. Bull at the time said "OK, Let?s do it." And we were going to work our way around. That was the plan at the time - but it didn?t happen.

CM: Memories of your feud with the Casualties of War for the Tag Team Titles.

AJ: I don?t remember too many of the matches right off hand. When we got back together, I think they were Malice & Shrapnel. They were great, just basic old-school guys. They just wanted to get the heat over. I don?t remember too much about the feud back then.

CM: There was the struggle between Major Powers & Pete Maguire over the ownership of Riverlanes and it came down to a match between the COWs and the Bad Boys. The COWs were tag team champions and you won the titles and saved Riverlanes for OPW at the same time.

AJ: The matches were good. Basic old-school matches. Malice could put stuff together and hold the match together. Me & Bull would listen enough in the back. Everyone knew their part. They didn?t care about getting their moves in, just getting the match over. At the time Rocco & Bolo were heels and they were wanting to get back over as faces. Me & Bull were having matches against the COWs and they ended up taking us out and hurting us. When it came to the match for OPW, Rocco & Bolo were supposed to come in through the side door and come save the day & Riverlanes for OPW and turn face. When it got time, Rocco didn?t think the COWs angle was over enough. Instead of making it the main focal angle in many shows leading up to it...I don?t think it ever headlined a show...I don?t think it was put as a top priority angle at the time, until the last weeks. If it had been a top priority angle the whole time, it may have had more effect. But me & Bull got to come in and save the day. The feud was supposed to end when the attacked us and hurt us and then Rocco & Bolo saved the day. Me & Bull got to end the whole thing by winning the feud and winning the belts because Rocco didn?t think they had the feud over enough.

CM: Shortly after that, the Bad Boys had the match against New Genesis at the Fairgrounds.

AJ: That match was originally supposed to be us and the Casualties of War. Then Jimmy Kane & Ian St. James came back and Rocco took the slot away from Casualties of War and gave it to New Genesis. The thing with New Genesis was Jimmy Kane did most of the booking for that angle. It was a good feud for Riverlanes fans. And when we got to the Mark Mason show...let me put it like this Jimmy Kane is a very, very intelligent man. His angles have deep meaning behind then and are more sadistic than your average angle.. And that?s where the fork came in - it was something he had seen in his days watching wrestling and something he wanted to do. Now the fork thing would have worked great at Riverlanes. And it did work great. When we go to the Fairgrounds, the fork didn?t work. The 250 OPW people at the Fairgrounds understood it, they?re like "The fork is back!", but to the other 4-5000 people there, they were like "oooh...a fork...that is pretty goofy". I think that kind of hurt the angle that night. If he hadn?t brought out the fork, if we had just done a basic DQ, it would have been better. I remember standing in lines to buy tickets for a WWF show later that year and saying "Well, did you come to the show back in January?" and they said "Yeah, some little guys came out and they brought a fork.-hahaha" And I thought "Oh, great...". I think the angle was over good at Riverlanes. The fairgrounds show was one of the highlights for me in my career, it was the biggest show I ever wrestled on. I think coming to the ring, people had an idea who the Bad Boys were. We had one of the biggest pops as far as independent wrestlers go - I don?t know if any of the indy guys on that show got the reaction we did coming to the ring. Rocco had a bigger pop after the match, but that was just due to the psychology and the way it was worked. We weren?t able to work it. That?s one of the matches I hate worst in my career. It?s the only time anyone?s every hit me for real in my career. Ian thought I froze up and hit me. I had missed a spot, but I covered it. It was my fault, but afterwards we watched the tape with other wrestlers and they never noticed the missed spot. It was a hot tag and I was gonna bodyslam Ian and Jimmy, but I forgot to do it. Ian hit me a couple of times and told me to wake up, so that kind of ruined the whole thing for me. I was pretty upset with it afterwards. I?d never had anyone hit me for real. And I?ve never hit anyone for real. I have never had any respect for anyone who has hit another guy on purpose in the ring or has claimed to. Other than that, I think it would have been real good without the fork and without me getting hit, of course. I?ll never forget that one.

CM: Any memories of your match against Bull Schmitt for the Oklahoma Title in April, 2000?

AJ: OPW fans wanted to see that match. Bull was at the top, he was the champ. After we broke up, after the New Genesis thing, Rocco was building me up. Bull got the title shot. He was the big thing at the time. I was feeding up on midcarders, match after match, no storylines or anything. There were a bunch of guys from Oklahoma City coming down: Angel (Williams), Dr. X, Brian Cruze. I always wanted to stay in tag teams whenever I got into wrestling. I wanted a partner. I thought that was the coolest thing. When me & Bull originally broke up the first time, Rocco was going to give me several partners. X was coming down and it was supposed to be me & X. He was known as D-Day at the time. He came down for several shows. He was good. D-Day was in it more for the money. He wanted a payday to be coming down. So even though we had it set up for him to be my partner, he wanted a lot more money than the $20 that OPW was paying at the time for coming down. So that kind of split that up. Me & D-Day weren?t going to be partners then. When me & Bull had the match, it was set up so there was no winner. Angel & Brian Cruze came in and interfered to set up a Tulsa vs. OKC angles. Angel & Bull went on their way. Brian Cruze & I were supposed to have a feud. Brian Cruze had the same kind of money situation as X. Another guy who commits to an angle and lets it get started, then doesn?t fulfill it. My angle got cast aside because Cruze wasn?t happy with the booking or the money. I think a lot of it might have been the booking. He wanted to be over more. He?s a good guy, but no booker is going to put somebody from out of town over on all his guys until he prove that he?s committed and I don?t blame anyone for doing that. So that?s how it fell aside. 2 guys wanted to be brought in and given a payday. There was never going to be a clear-cut winner between me & Bull in that match, just a hyped opportunity that the fans wanted to see, but used to make other angles.

CM: At the end of July of 2000, Brent Albright, then wrestling as Vinnie Valentino, returned to OPW. He had one match back that night, then came out later that night and interfered on behalf of the VIP Crew, reforming with them. Next week there was a Loser-Leaves-OPW match between you & Brent. Do you have any memories of that match itself?

AJ: I think Brent set the match all up. I didn?t have much input. Brent put in his interview that I went above and beyond what a fat boy could have done or whatever. I don?t recall. I can tell you how the match got set up, but I don?t recall anything about the match whatsoever. I had told Rocco that I would like to take a short break and he asked if I minded doing the job for Vinnie to have him more over. The only thing I remember about the match is that me & Brent came out and got on the mic and challenged each other and Pete had no idea what was going on. Pete was clueless it was a Loser-Leaves-OPW match. So, seeing Pete?s reaction, I can remember him being like "What? What?". Maybe Rocco didn?t tell him or I didn?t tell him. Pete?s reaction was really funny at the time because he really didn?t know what the angle was we were going for. But I don?t recall anything about the match.

CM: OK. Well, you lost the match and then we have one of my favorite angles involving you. The "Son of Bolo" angle. How did that come about?

AJ: I think Rocco might have told you that I give Rocco 10 ideas and he takes 1 of them. Well, one of the 10 ideas I had was Son of Bolo. Bolo was a face at the time. I went to Rocco and told him I wanted to take some time off. I was getting burned out at the time. Rocco told me "Hey, I?m gonna make Brent a heel. Would you mind getting him over more?" "Tell me what to do and I do it. I don?t care. But here?s my idea." I was supposed to be out for a month or 2. We were off for a week. I didn?t go to practice that week. So I think I popped into practice the second week, before the show and Rocco said "OK, are you ready for the Son of Bolo idea?" And I thought I was gonna take some time off. At least a week. I really enjoyed it. It got me enthused to get back in there. That was my idea to come back. Rocco just picked up on it. Working with Bolo at the time was real good.

CM: Another member of the VIP Crew that we haven?t talked a lot about, but you still had several matches against is Joey Casanova. What are your memories of Joey?

AJ: Joey was awesome. Joey was probably the best light heavyweight that we ever had. He may not have had the most talented ring work, but he definitely had the most charisma of all the light heavyweights out there. Probably the most underrated guy OPW ever had. It?s too bad personal conflicts led to him leaving. Joey would do the stuff that would make people laugh and that?s what we fed upon. We did some of that stuff with Bolo, because I think Joey would tag with Bolo a lot. He would do some of the same stuff with us. Just do some of that small guy/fat guy stuff. We had a match at the Cage Match card. I don?t remember too many of my matches, but I remember that Joey was a great worker. He?s one of those guys you love to work.

CM: After defeating Bolo in a hardcore match and returning as Splash Jackson, you had another match against Bull Schmitt, but this one also involved Brandon Groom. Any memories of working with Brandon?

AJ: I remember that match. To be honest I can?t remember who came out on top or anything about it either.

CM: Bull did.

AJ: I don?t remember what the purpose of the match was. Maybe just to build Brandon up. I don?t think it had any bearing on storylines at the time.

CM: How about winning the Oklahoma Stampede and becoming the Oklahoma Champion?

AJ: That was a big surprise. I earned a lot of respect from Brent for this. It was originally just supposed to be the Oklahoma Stampede. Brian Lakewood was the commissioner. Kind of the same thing that happened to me. Rocco gave him the part. Rocco?s real cool about those things. If you wanted to be involved, he kept you involved. The last 2 guys were originally supposed to wrestle the next week for the title. I had wrestled Brett Knight earlier. And it was supposed to be me, Brett & Brent at the end of the stampede. Rocco had it all set up. Brent was awesome. Brent worked on the match in the back. We had the whole things set up. I?m not one to choreograph matches. I?ve got to feed off of it so I can remember to work the crowd. Every time they would talk or announce in the ring that night, Brent was in the back with me talking about the match. It?s the only choreographed match I ever had. OK, so Brent had me cornered in the back, going over the match. Lakewood announced that the winner of the Stampede would become the OPW champion. Brent was talking to me so I wouldn?t hear that. Brent & Rocco just worked wonders. We went out there. We did the match. I won the title. At the end, I was supposed to flip Brent over the top and he was going to land on the outside of the ring. Brent told me, "When I call your name, come over and punch me and I?m going to fall off." We went in and I did the match and I remember that I threw Brent over and I forgot to punch him. If you watch that match, Brent?s holding on to the top rope for about 10 seconds. Crowd is wondering why Brent can?t get his balance. He?s calling "Splash! Splash!" Finally I remember, so I go over and I punch Brent. He falls out and the place goes nuts. I still have no idea what the ramifications of the match were. Rocco forgot the belt. He left it at the house that night. I see all the guys coming from the back. I still don?t know what?s going on. So I thought Brent was going to do something to me. I kept feeding my back to Brent, looking like I was hurt, thinking these guys were coming out because Brent was going to attack me. Finally, the guys are getting in the ring and giving me high-fives. And I hear Rocco?s voice from the back saying "Your new OPW Champion, Splash Jackson!" And I finally realized I must have done something and I won it. I really didn?t believe it until I got to the back. I didn?t get the belt until a week later when we had our next show. That was real cool. Brent & Lakewood & Rocco had it all set up. It probably would have hit home faster if Rocco had actually handed me the belt as soon as I knocked Brent off, but I remember he left that at home.

CM: You were involved in the very first OPW Fans Bring the Weapons match. Any memories of that?

AJ: Fans Bring the Weapons was my idea. I saw it on the Internet. After you see 5 or 6 Hardcore Nights they get kind of boring unless you get the people involved. Rocco finally bought into it and me go against Butch Dalton. Butch was awesome. There aren?t too many people you could do Fans Bring the Weapons with because you can?t trust them. He had a golf club, I think. Butch whacked me with the golf club and I remember thinking "Focus! Focus!!" because I was about to go out. WE beat the crud out of each other. And every time he comes over to the house he asks me "Did you find that tape of the hardcore match?" I can?t find the tape to this match. I don?t remember much about it, but I know he beat the crud out of me. I remember it was brutal.

CM: For a long time before you became Oklahoma Champion, you were being put up against a bunch of different people and not having any sustained feuds as a singles wrestler. How did you feel about that? Was it frustrating not being able to work a program with someone or did you just figure Rocco thinks you can work with anyone?

AJ: I wanted to work a program. There were several people I was supposed to work programs with. That?s one of the reasons I loved Pro Wrestling was the storylines. I was supposed to work with T. C. He no-showed so much. I don?t remember anyone else I was really supposed to have a program with. I think me & Dr. X were supposed to have one. He was a good wrestler, a real good worker. He knew psychology plus he could do moves as a big guy, but he wouldn?t come down all the time. OPW was his last resort if he couldn?t get a pay day somewhere else. I think there just wasn?t a place for me to fit into the stories.

CM: When you first became champion you had a brief feud with Brett Knight. Any memories of working with him?

AJ: I don?t remember much about that feud. I remember wrestling Brett. Brett was a guy who couldn?t come down all the time, but he was someone established that the crowd respected so I think Rocco put me with him to get me over more as the champion. Brett was one of those guys who would do a good job and put you over and make you more of a legitimate champion at the time instead of just a paper champion.

CM: You had another Fans Bring the Weapons match, this one was my favorite one. It was against Dexter Hardaway. First I?d like to get your impressions of Dexter. And then this match was also the OPW debut of Justin Lee and I?d like your memories of that.

AJ: Dexter?s great. Dexter?s awesome to work with. Dexter knew psychology, he could do the funny stuff...

CM: He built this thing behind you which I just stared at and thought "What is he doing stacking all this stuff up?"

AJ: He thought he could make it work because one of the things was a pop cooler or something. Dexter was great to work with. He would do anything. He?d take anything. I remember in the match I wanted to take more stuff from him. He brought in a table. Originally I was supposed to go through the table. He was supposed to hit me and I was supposed to go through the table to the floor. Rocco told me to not take that bump. I told Dexter "Listen, I?m sorry. This is what the booker says." Dexter understood and took it instead. I?m sure we?ll go more into the SRPW stuff later on, but I have a great respect for him. I know he?s burnt some bridges. I think he?s a wrestling fan and he loves pro wrestling almost more than any other wrestler I know. He wanted to be a booker so he tried some other stuff. If he?d just been a role-player like myself and anybody else, he would have done real good. He wanted to try other things. But as a wrestler, Dexter was great to work with. He would do anything, take anything. The match was Fans Bring the Weapons and he?s another of those guys that I would trust to do that with, kind of like Butch was. There were several guys back in the day that I would trust to do that with. There?s probably 1 or 2 now that I would trust. Justin came in. OPW was on a down cycle at the time. Justin brought in a new fan base with his ICF guys. This was back when Justin would do anything just to get in the show. It worked out great. I remember he jumped in the ring and hit me with his belt. I turned around and put him through the table. I was worried because he was young at the time and it was his first time out and I thought "I hope I don?t jack this up and hurt him." We had an "OPW!" chant going after I put him through it. I think even Ray (Martinez) was in the crowd that night. Me & Ray were friends before he got into wrestling. He got in the biz through Justin, I think. But I remember Ray was out there leading an "OPW!" chant. So that was a great match. I remember we had barb wire. First time I brought barb wire to the ring. I took a bump on the barb wire and then Dexter took a bump on it.

CM: Any memories of your title Vs title match vs. Big Daddy Moore, which was on the last OPW Card at Riverlanes?

AJ: I remember I was more worried about that match than anything. It was one of the biggest achievements I ever had. I was a face, but no one was over more as a face than Big Daddy. I remember wondering if I was going to go out there and get booed. Rocco made it a title-Vs-title. I had no input on that. I knew it was the last show. They wanted something big. I don?t even remember if he asked me who I wanted at the time. He thought Big Daddy & I could put on a big match at the time. I went out. It was one of the most nervous times in my life because I thought Big Daddy would definitely have the crowd behind him and I wouldn?t know how to react as a face to that. But the crowd reaction was equal. I was getting just as much pop as Big Daddy. No one was getting anything but face pops. I remember 2 things about that match. I remember getting juice in that match. Big Daddy had me on the outside. He didn?t give me as much time as I thought he would. I had my gig ready and he came and I thought "Crap!" He grabbed me before I was ready so I just jammed it in my forehead and cut sideways. I lost a ton of blood. I remember going like this (wipes hand across face as if clearing his eyes) and just wiping it down. I couldn?t even see. Everything was red. I think we had a table that wouldn?t break in that match. We got this table and it was old and raggedy so we thought we didn?t need to take the braces off. The table wouldn?t break. I remember getting up on the top rope and jumping off. Big Daddy was laying on the table and I hit the table and that thing did not break. I thought Big Daddy was gonna die. He was like "OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH!!!". I rolled around on the mat until I could get near him and say "Let?s do it again." So we set the table up, I jump again, the table still wouldn?t break. I remember rolling around on the mat and this time Big Daddy says "Don?t do it again!!". I didn?t want to give him the second one, but that table was just a tough table. It was one of my favorite matches that I?ve ever had. I got equal pops with him. I remember someone brought me orange juice in the back because they were worried I?d lost so much blood.

CM: What was your feeling when that match was over and you knew that, at least for the time, OPW was over?

AJ: There were several guys who were trying to get something going again. I had some family members who thought about spotting me some money. I don?t know how much Rocco was really into it at the time, so I thought Vyper was really a go-get-?em kind of guy so I wanted to try and get him involved. But it just never really got off the ground. There was a lot of talk, more talk than action. But the big thing was just finding a building. Then Rocco announced the sale to OCW. But me, Vyper, AWOL wanted a piece of it, I think Grenade was also, there were a couple of other people who wanted in, but it just never got off the ground.

CM: Just a couple of other things about the OPW era. You did the Starbird shows.

AJ: Oh, the Starbird Shows were awesome. The first Starbird show was easily the best. The first night was the same night as the Fairground show, so we didn?t get to go up for that. We went up the next night and stayed until the following morning and that was just a nonstop party. Everybody got to have fun. Huge crowds. I don?t remember the count, probably 1500-2000 packed around the ring. That was the hotter of the nights. I remember that Sunday was always kind of dead. We shared the same floor as people from STOMP! and they were performing somewhere else and they thought they could keep up with us. So they?re getting wrestlers drunk and we?re starting fights with people from STOMP! That was my most fun experience. I get to wrestle in front of the WWF and then go wrestle in front of indy crowds and I had a blast. That was the first one. Rocco tried to work things around so they would always be the Valentinos vs. the Bad Boys as the main event on the Saturday show. The second time we went, there were people who came up and said, "Hey! We remember you from last year!" It was just cool that they would come back from the year before.

CM: How about the Fun Fair Shows?

AJ: Fun Fair were a little different. They were a little disappointing. They could get kind of long. With the Starbird shows, everyone goes up, they do the show, they have a hotel room, it?s easy. With the Fun Fair Shows, you had to fight traffic, wrestle, you don?t want to sit around the Fair for 3 hours so you get back in the car and fight traffic, get back home, sit around for a little while, then, if you were wrestling again, get back in the car and fight traffic again. I thought we could have done something better. So that was kind of disappointing.

CM: During the OPW time, you also went down to Oklahoma City and worked some shots for Underground Hardcore Wrestling? Did you work for any other federations?

AJ: Oh yeah. I went down to NWA-Southwest a couple of times with Bull. Ken Taylor was the promoter at the time. The first time I went down there, I wrestled some big Mexican guy. He was an older guy and he wouldn?t listen. We were supposed to go over the match, but we went out to the ring and I was supposed to give him an Action Bomb and to set that up, I?m supposed to kick him in the back of the legs, but I kick him and he won?t go down. Kick him again and he won?t go down. By this time, I figure I?ll never wrestle in NWA-SW again. The third time I kicked him straight in the kneecap - not enough to hurt him though, but to remind him to go down. He went down that time. I guess he was going to be one of the regulars. I never saw him again. After all of my other matches in OPW, I have always gone to the veterans, usually Bolo or Chief or Renegade, and asked them how my match was. That?s the way I was taught it worked. I listened to everything they would say and ask "How can I make my matches better?" and everything they taught me worked at these other shows. I got enough of a crowd reaction that I could tell it worked. Anyway, after the match, I went to Ken Taylor. Taylor told me I could come down whenever I wanted. I told him I can?t come down all the time. I have a family and it?s too far. He said just to let him know when I was coming down and he?d give me a match. I got to do 2 or 3 matches with him after that and it got to the point where I?d call him and say I was coming down with Bull this weekend and he?d say "Alright. You?re on". And he?d give me a match when I?d get there. Underground Hardcore was the federation of Big Dog & Rebel. We difference of philosophies of wrestling. When they first did it, they wanted me to be on the show and that was great because they liked my wrestling. They wanted a federation where everybody was a Hardcore maniac serious badass. Everything that I?m probably not. We?d go down there and I?d wrestle my first match and I remember that it would get no response. I was wrestling T. C. and getting no response, so finally I had to resort back to the funny sarcastic heel. I hadn?t been a heel before, at least not in OPW. I got crowd reaction. I thought they were OK. But Rebel was like "OK. This is what we want." They kept me on for a couple more shows and then it was like the same thing every time. I know I wasn?t giving them what they wanted, but I wanted to get something out of it. They were just some wild crazy guys, but I still love those guys and wish them well into the future. I went to Arkansas. I can?t even remember the name of the federation in Arkansas. They were bringing in a couple of big name guys. I think the first time I went, Kevin Northcutt wrestled Greg the Hammer Valentine. They would bring in a couple of big name guys and then fill up the rest with us undercard guys. Dr. X, Dexter & Malice were going down there and I rode down there with them. They introduced me to the promoter and he said "Yeah. Sometime get me a tape or something." I wanted to stay there and watch. Well, about 15 minutes before the show, he comes up to me and says "Hey. We had some guys no-show. Do you want to join in?" And I remember it was me & Dexter wrestling X & Malice. That was a blast. After that, the promoter came up and was offering me paydays, transportation and food for every time I went to Arkansas and wrestled. I went and wrestled for him once a month or once every other month for about 8 or 9 months. Those were some different matches. He got some ragtag places. I remember falling out of the ring one time and falling in a puddle of water in this armory. Come to find out a toilet had backed up and it ran all the way down to the ring. That was the kind of thing he got. Back before King Mabel was called back up to the WWF as Viscera, I got to work a show with him. He was really cool. He would talk to me & Dexter because there was nobody else of his calibre in the locker room. That was kind of weird. He had a foot fetish, just like Dexter. I?m watching him take pictures of these ugly Arkansas women?s feet, which is about as disgusting as it can be for me. And he and Dexter are telling them how to pose. That was funny. It was fun to go down there, they would pay the money, but they had no idea how to run the show. I remember one time they built a cage in Arkansas. For a cage match. They built the cage, asked the wrestlers to come to the ring. When they got to the ring, they realized they didn?t have a door for the wrestlers to get in the cage. But this guy could get the word out and people would come and see. You were getting to wrestle in front of 4-700 people. So it was a good experience and I had a blast. I remember one time, this was back in my big, big, big days. He paid us our money, paid our transportation and takes us to Pizza Hut afterwards and tells us to order what we want. This is me & X and X isn?t a little guy either. Me & X left Pizza Hut with 5 large pizzas on top of what we already ordered at the place.


CM: What were your initial impressions of John Crow when you met him and heard that OCW was starting up?

AJ: The first time I met John Crow he seemed to be on top of his game. He had a meeting. Rocco introduced us to John. John had a crew of 4 or 5 guys with him. Everything he seemed to be sounded pretty good to everybody. I think me, Grenade & Karl Davis went to the meeting together and we came out thinking he had a shot of making this work. He talked about promoting, marketing he was going to do. He introduced us to his partners, which were the guys with him at the time. Everything he said seemed to be right on. We came out with good impressions. We handed in our belts when OPW closed down and when we got there and one of the first things he did was say a champion should have his belt and handed me my belt back. So I thought this guy was pretty cool and this was going to work out. He had a building for us to practice in. So impressions were good at first.

CM: Any memories of the match where you dropped the OCW belt to Brandon?

AJ: I didn?t mind dropping the belt to anybody. I didn?t have a problem with Brandon at the time. I got to the practice building and Crow and Brent take me aside and tell me how I am going to lose the belt. And I?m OK with that. I asked when this was going to take place. At the time they told me this, WE DIDN?T EVEN HAVE A SHOW SCHEDULED YET. So I thought, "OK. So we?re booking matches for no place to wrestle." I started to wonder if this whole thing was going to work out. It seemed to me that the inmates we already jumping ship from the asylum and trying to get into Crows ear so that can get pushes. We?ve just got a booking fan instead of an owner to run our federation. So dropping the title to Brandon was no problem. They told me that I could keep my Hardcore Title. He then said that he wanted Brent to have the title. I knew that Brent had been talking to him. To be honest, If I were running the organization, Brent would get the title and I?d have plastered his face everywhere. Brent was best built, had the best body - not as pretty of a face though I remind you..hahaha. But John said we needed a transitional champion. Brandon doesn?t know this yet, but he?ll win the belt and then a week or 2 later, he?s dropping the belt to Brent. I thought, all right. I?m concerned about booking before we had shows set up - I thought that one of the first big downfalls. And then that?s where the Rodeo came in.

CM: Yeah, you?ve been kind of vocal about having the shows at the Rodeo.

AJ: I understand why Crow did what he did at the Rodeo. He was just trying to find us a place. He was obviously losing his butt in this. I don?t know why he didn?t pull out before. I guess he just thought we had to have shows. Not too many older people (adults) showed up for our shows. We have a fanbase of kids and families. We?re cheap family entertainment. You?re not going to get that at a bar. You?re not going to get that at a bar on Sunday night. Sunday afternoon maybe. 1 or 2pm might have been better than Sunday night at 5 or 6. Sometimes my kid didn?t get to go if I thought it was going to keep up to late and be one of the later matches. I just didn?t want to take my kid to a club where they had a porno video game - let alone a couple of the kids were playing it! I just didn?t think it was the right atmosphere for kids. Sundays were just bad. If he was losing half the money he said he was losing, he should have pulled out. I don?t care where you are. If I knew something was costing me money, I?m not going to do it too many more times just to keep my name out there.

CM: Any memories of your Hardcore Title match with Terry Montana or just matches with Terry in general? You had several of them over the course of 2002?

AJ: Terry was different to work with. He was one of the guys who wanted to be hit as hard as you could hit in order to make it look real. And he would do the same in return, whether you wanted him to or not. Terry hit me with some crazy shots in those match. I remember he came at me with something in one match and I just bailed because he had hit me real hard several times earlier in the match. I didn?t want to take it. I was focusing on focal points throughout the match. Terry was crazy to work. He would do all the brutal stuff. It would be hard to work him. He had a monster gimmick and that was kind of hard for a character like me to get over on a monster gimmick. And he was bigger than me, so I understood his philosophy. But still, when I did stuff to him, I thought it should put him down for a while and then I would go work the crowd and he should get more heat. He just hit your hard. I didn?t want to be in too many matches with him or I could be retarded at this point. He would take anything and do anything and I totally respect him for that. Terry is an awesome guy who I love to death, just a hell of a lot stronger than me and the toughest guy I ever stepped in the ring with.

CM: How did your tag team with Brian Lakewood come about?

AJ: They wanted to get a strap on Brian. I said I would tag with him. Me & Brian were good friends. Me, Brian & Bull would play basketball together before any of us got into wrestling. Actually, to this day, Brian deserves a pop on the head from me & Bull because Brian knew how big a fan Bull & I were of wrestling and Brian was training to be a wrestler with Rocco, but he never told me or Bull! We?d meet up every day or every other day to play basketball or just hang out with Brian and he never told us he was training to be a wrestler. I think I said I would tag with Brian and we?d just work it out. At the time, Brian couldn?t make several shows. I was there all the time for a while and so it was hard for us to defend the titles. I think we finally dropped them to Big Daddy & Karl at an Indian Festival.

CM: The angle was that you defended them in a handicap match because Brian had to be in Louisiana or something.

AJ: Actually, Brian really was in Louisiana that weekend at a family event. But Brian was working and he was doing some DJ shows for Rocco at the time.

CM: So, from the beginning of OCW until you drop the tag team title, you don?t go very long without a belt. Did you get the feeling you were still being pushed as the go-to guy by Rocco to John or was there some other reason?

AJ: John had a ton of guys feeding him in his ear what he should do. He had Brent, he had Brandon, he even had Justin. He even turned the reigns over to Justin later on. Rocco was still the main guy he would go to for advice and his main booking man. Right after I dropped the title was when Manservant came about. Manservant was one of the 10 ideas that I shot by Rocco that he accepted. I think Rocco knew that all the veterans were leaving. Bolo & Chief (Red Eagle) had left. There weren?t too many established guys who could go out and get heat. Crow was a big believer in "Let?s have GREAT matches" instead of "Let?s do stuff to draw a crowd." I can only watch, maybe, 1 match of great strategic wrestling and then I?m bored to death. I want something that?s going to entertain me or be funny. Rocco knew that, so he kept me with a title so I could put some heat on one of the belts.

CM: It was after you dropped the tag team titles that you began the transition to work fully as a heel. You had worked as a heel on the road shows.

AJ: Rocco was a firm believer that I was too over with the crowd for them to believe in me as a heel. That?s what he always told me. But he knew I could do it. He let me try it at the road shows and it worked great. I loved the road shows. I could work heel and I took the all the advice that any of the heels had ever given me. Renegade, Bolo, Rocco. Rocco just thought that because of my personality, the regular crowd would never believe me as a heel. That?s why he only reluctantly turned me. I think when he finally did turn me was when he realized I was getting worn out with OCW. I hated it at the time. I kept getting pushed back and pushed back. And I?m not saying I expected to always have a title or anything. It just wasn?t a fun place for me to be. And that?s why he finally let me turn.

CM: When you & Manservant finally got together on a full-time basis, you had something of a feud with Rocco & Brent and Jenna Love was still around at the time. You would tag with Amanda St. George against them. Any memories of those matches?

AJ: Manservant & I finally got together at the Tahlequah show. That match was me & Big Daddy and Manservant was with me. We destroyed the crowd. There was just so much heat. We were the Semi-Main. Security said the crowd was too worn out to do anything for the main event that night (I had thought that it was just because it was just another boring technical match is why they were quiet). They just sat during the main event and were quiet. They just didn?t care. But we made the angle work. The gay part wasn?t really supposed to happen, but we just worked it in because it would get heat. Once I turned heel, I don?t think there was any doubt that I was the top heel. I don?t think there was anyone who could get heat, even at the mid-card level, the way we were getting it. As good of a tag team me & Bull (and arguably one of the best ever in OPW) were, I think me & Manservant clicked even more. I don?t think we had a feud, we had several matches, but we were totally opposite of what the Valentinos stood for. Whenever he had a chance, Rocco put us all together because they were big faces at the time and we were the guys who would get the most heat. It would be fun matches because Rocco would play along with me and Russ?s stupid tricks.

CM: Any memories of the Oklahoma Stampede at the end of 2002 where everything just kind of fell to pieces?

AJ: No matter what anyone says, I heard Rocco go over the book with Brandon several times. I knew what Brandon was supposed to do. I think Manservant & I were frustrated that we weren?t being put in any major angles. Brandon had just come back. He was being pushed into a major angle. Brent had been gone. He had just come back and he was being thrust into this major angle. We were halfway frustrated that we weren?t being pushed into a major angle. But I knew what Brandon was supposed to do. They were sitting right beside me in the back when they went over it. I guess Brandon didn?t do what he was supposed to do. They started sending guys out to take care of things and I didn?t go. I didn?t care. It wasn?t my angle. I think maybe it was the whole "Big Fat guy thing" and John wanted his super middle weights on the card. I just know that Brandon didn?t do what he was supposed to do. I like Brandon, but I don?t respect him for going against the book. And he was supposed to be built up as a superman after that. I don?t know why he flipped out. Frankly, it was all very entertaining at the time as I sat in the back, but I didn?t care.

CM: Right before the end of OCW, you wrestled a 4-way Hardcore match against Terry Montana, Shadow of Death, Shane Morbid and you lost the title, briefly, to Manservant. Was this an attempt to break the 2 of you up?

AJ: I don?t think there was any attempt to break us up. I think we they were just sending us out there with something to shut us up. Because Manservant & I would get the heat. They figured that if they wanted to get someone over, put them with Tony & Manservant. We didn?t care if we put them over. We just knew we could get the heat. I don?t think there was any attempt to break us up. I don?t even know if it was our idea to do it. I think it was somebody else?s idea. I don?t even know what the intentions were after that. And, just to clarify something, as far as Manservant was concerned, when he forfeited the title back to me, I became the champion again. I was champion when OCW ended. I think the whole thing was just to give us something to do.
CM: What was your reaction when you heard, as everyone else did that night, that John was selling OCW?

AJ: Well, when I first heard it, I thought "Thank God John is gone!" He was burning to many bridges with guys as he tried to cover up promises to everyone. I didn?t think he knew what was going on. If he was making money at Hot Wheels like he said he was, I think that was a good thing. I think they had the same thing going this last time at Hot Wheels too. I can tell you a couple of things about John. He told everyone at one time that he was losing so much money he didn?t know what to do. I knew by this time I was never going to own my own federation. I always had several small ideas. I told John I had some ideas you can try and make money with these. He kind of shot down most of my ideas because they were to small for his objectives. He said he liked a couple of them. He would shoot for bigger ideas, which I found out later he wasn?t really trying or just couldn?t get done. I was shooting for smaller things like, kids wrestling was big recently. Have a wrestling party. Have a bunch of kids get together and charge some money to let them get in the ring with a couple of wrestlers and have the wrestlers show them some moves or something like that. Bring in cake and make a whole party out of it. I knew we could never make money at the level he wanted to, so I was looking to make money at any level we can. The thing that settled it for me was, when I met with him to tell him of my small ideas, we ate at a restaurant and he took the phone call from the guy who was wanting to set up Ted DiBiase?s show in Claremore. He was talking to those guys and trying to tell them who to bring in. He was one of the first guys they contacted to do that before they got hold of SRPW. He totally botched that up and I wasn?t too crazy about that. I wanted to wrestle on a card with the Road Warriors in front of a big crowd. Second thing he did that upset me was he hyped up his Super 8 tournament and didn?t book his top heel off the card! I think Manservant went down there to help the show. I didn?t even go to the show. The thing about John was, he had this thing for his light heavyweight division. I?m sorry, but no one cares about light heavyweights. Especially since the majority of our light heavyweights come out and they come up to a regular persons chest. Guys think "Well, I can beat this guy in a minute. Why am I gonna get my rocks off watching these guys wrestle?" So I wasn?t too crazy about that. Manservant ended up putting on a dress and wrestling for the women?s title. I didn?t even go to the show. I knew I wasn?t one of the bigger guys in his eyes, no matter what anyone told me. So when he announced the sale, it caught everybody off guard in the back. I couldn?t blame Sonny for what he did. Sonny loaned John some money. Sonny had to pay to back it up. Everything that John had as collateral was stuff that he had claimed he sold, so why should Sonny not take it? I don?t know the legal system. Obviously Sonny was in the right because he won whatever legal battles there were. But he should have told guys before it happened. Everybody there was basically working for free at the time. Or so we thought. Come to find out after a while he was paying Faith & Halo to come in. He wasn?t paying any of us. And if I had known that the money was going to the right place, I wouldn?t have cared about working for free. But don?t lie to us about it! He was paying Brent. And one of the big things that broke was when I found out he was paying Brent and so I let it be known and then it really blew up. I know that in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Brent Albright?s name and Faith & Halo?s name aren?t gonna bring in any more people than the Canadian Luchadore?s. Nobody is any bigger than anybody. Now maybe they are when they get to the show. Maybe somebody?s going to get more heat, but it?s not going to be a bigger draw to pay somebody. I don?t deserve money when no one else is getting money. So he lied about that when no one else was getting paid. Nobody trusted him at the end and everybody pretty much sided with Rocco at the end. There were still several guys he would listen to about the booking. I never tried to go to him about the booking. I remember one time I met with him and he said "You aren?t going to try to talk to me about the book, are you?". I said, "No, I don?t care about that. I?m trying to shoot you ideas to make you money. The book is never going to make a wrestling company money". The book may be able to make people come back, but you have to have good ideas on how to make money in the first place. He was just like anyone else that wanted to make money, wanted to book wrestling shows, but didn?t have any idea about the business. So he announces the sale. Didn?t tell anybody. Then it came out about Brent getting money and he tries to cover with one show and give us $5 or $10 and about $30 in his trade money and then it was back to no one getting anything. And I wouldn?t have minded working for nothing, if he?d just been honest with us. So he announced it. I know that Sonny should take his stuff. John should have told us before the show. Most of the guys would probably have been happy because we would have thought that we would get somebody that would run it better. At least that was my idea. I can?t speak for any of the other guys. Sonny needed to get his stuff because he gave John money that he was never going to get back. So I don?t blame him in the least bit.

CM: Between the end of OCW and the beginning of TPW, you worked the first SRPW show in Tulsa against Dynamite Extreme. Did you give any consideration to working for them full time or was this just a one-shot thing to help Keebler out?

AJ: When SRPW first came into existence...I had worked with Beau (Dalton) who was one of the founding members of SRPW. I had helped him get a job where I worked. I had full intention of going to work for SRPW at the time. And the reason I would have gone there was because I wasn?t happy with the way that OCW was going. John had put Justin in charge and at the time I don?t think that Justin should have been in charge because he didn?t have any credibility or anything. I wouldn?t have done anything different to Justin. And recently when he had the chance to take over wrestling with Sonny, that?s a different story. But at the time, John had turned it over to guys who was feeding his ear with stuff. So I didn?t see leaving OCW as leaving Rocco. If I had gone to SRPW and Rocco had opened TPW - I would have been back with Rocco. I?m all for Rocco. I would have come back and worked for Rocco anytime he did anything. Anyway, I went to the opening SRPW meeting. I was going to work for them. And at this point, OCW was saying "You can work for SRPW and still work for us." And I told them about I had intentions of working the SRPW show. I think Rocco and everyone else knew. SRPW announced they were going to do a lot of their shows out of town. I still wanted to wrestle regularly. And at that time, Rocco was giving me & Manservant something because we never really seemed to matter in the bigger storyline. He gave us free run. We did the Christmas gifts. He just gave us free reign to do whatever stupid funny stuff we could think of and we liked it. So it was really fun doing that and I was having a blast with Manservant. A lot of the OCW guys were trying to say that if I left it was being disloyal to Rocco. But I said that Rocco didn?t own it now. I?m still loyal to Rocco. Then another controversy came down and led to the announcement that if you worked for SRPW, you were no longer OCW. OK. I didn?t want to travel. I didn?t want to take time away from my family. So I called Sarah (Harmon) up and said "Hey. I can?t work for you. It?s closer for me to work for OCW where I?m gone less. I think ?m just going to stay here for now." When John announced the sale, Keebler had a benefit show set up. Keebler invested all his own money into this show. John told Keebler that he might as well just play basketball on that date because John wasn?t going to do anything to help since Sonny took back his ring. I heard 3 or 4 days before the show that they didn?t have enough guys to wrestle. Sarah and SRPW had stepped up to help out and I have the utmost respect for that. Then word got out that they didn?t have enough wrestlers. Well, I talked to Luc (Lapointe) that weekend and said "Hey. I hear you?re running short on guys. I want to come and help out. I want to do my part for Keebler". Keebler is a friend and I don?t want to leave a friend hanging out. I called Rocco. I said what John did was wrong. He shouldn?t have just told Keebler to just go and play basketball. I?m stepping up for Keebler. I think me, Grenade & Terry Montana went up. I found out after that the SRPW guys were getting paid. Sarah came up to me after the show with my pay and I asked "Did Keebler make money?" and she said no. So I said "Keep my money. Let it go to Keebler and help him out". I think Grenade & Montana did the same thing. We all stepped up. He was trying to help his school and ended up losing a ton of money in the process. It was fun working Dynamite Extreme. It wasn?t anything about going over or putting someone over. I told Rocco that on the phone. I said, "I don?t care about my character. I care about friendships more." I knew I was going to be putting someone over when I went over there.

CM: What were your feelings when you heard that TPW was starting back up and going in a rather different direction than OPW & OCW had before?

AJ: Rocco?s back in charge!! I have always tried to show loyalty to Rocco whenever I can. I?m a friend of his outside of wrestling. I understand him. I think he?s gotten screwed over a lot in the past no matter what the stories are. He now has a Mexican place to run shows at. Bring in the Mexican wrestlers to try and bring in the Mexican people. I thought it was a real good idea. It didn?t work out too well in the end, but Rocco?s back in charge and I?m all gung-ho for that.

CM: Any thoughts on the tag team tournament with you & Romero Contreras and the relationship between you 2?

AJ: It?s a new company and they wanted us all to go our separate ways. Romero was promised a big push as a face. I would see it totally different if we were all coming in as the same character, but we weren?t. They were trying to totally forget Manservant until we realized we were still getting the American crowd there and not much of a Hispanic influence. I understand. You can either be a gay guy and be second-fiddle or you can be a top Mexican heavyweight in a Mexican federation. We still like working together so Rocco booked us in a heel/face tag team known as the Mexican Combo Platter for this tournament. I had to miss one of the shows for the tournament and we had to lose that match and the end of the combo platter came about.

CM: Any thoughts about the Cinco de Mayo shows?

AJ: They were a blast too. We got to work another great big festival like the Starbird shows or the Fun Fair shows. Little bit more enjoyable than the Fun Fair shows because you didn?t have to fight traffic getting in. Crowds seemed to be hotter and better and you could do anything. I had one guy and I didn?t know I was offending him or I would have gone after him a little bit harder. I guess he hollered something at me in Spanish and I didn?t know what it was. That was a blast. I got the fans to boo Sonny. I tagged with Sonny and I got to turn Sonny heel for about 10 minutes. They were good shows.

CM: Did you ever worry that you were going a little to far in any of the things you were doing that were less than politically correct while TPW was at the Mexican shopping centre?

AJ: No. I think a lot of the people realized it was just a show. It?s good versus evil. That?s the way I see it. One wrestler in the past said he had an issue with being a heel, coming from a Christian standpoint. But to me it?s just good versus evil and good comes out on top. I think you just have to understand that. As a heel, I can cheat to win, cheat to win, cheat to win, but overall, you?ve got to prove the point that good comes out on top. Just going overboard was just fun and for shock value. You?re not going to get that shock value off of that basic stuff.

CM: Any memories of your match at the Cinco Shows with Poo Bear?

AJ: I think I missed the show where he won the battle royal. I?d heard about Poo Bear and then I finally saw him. One of my downfalls was that I never really knew any of the students until they got into the show. Because of the extracurricular stuff I do on the outside and the family stuff, I never got there until right before the shows and I wasn?t there much afterwards. I remember it was my idea, I said "Let me wrestle Poo Bear. I can beat him down the whole match and then go for a slam at the end and I can?t get him up and he falls on top of me for the win." That puts him over. I can admit I?ve never been much into booking, but that was one of my ideas. Rocco loved it. He thought it was funny, especially for my character, because he knew I could work it and get the crowd hating me so bad and then fall on my backside. I think later Rocco had second thoughts. He said "Now you?re putting a guy over in his first match." I said "I don?t care. I think it will be funny." I didn?t realize the effect it would have. I think it showed me as more of a team player afterwards. I just wanted the shock value. And we had lost so many veterans that they established stars like me & Rocco, we have to put over the young guys sometime or it gets boring just watching the same guys beat the younger guys down. I know it meant something to Rocco cause he brought it up a hundred times about a vet putting over a rookie in the first match and it meant something to Poo Bear because he said something about it too. I guess you could say it was cool on my part and I wasn?t even thinking about that. I just thought it would be funny at the time. But it worked out for me in the long run, I guess.

CM: Probably the match with the biggest buildup surrounding you was your match with Rocco Valentino for the TPW title.

AJ: I wish it could have been stretched out a little bit. I think Rocco realised he was going to give it up and we set up the match at one show. I couldn?t make the next show. Then we actually had the match. I wish it had been more of a buildup. I don?t know if it would have drawn any more people in at the time since every independent card was down at this stage. It went pretty well. Rocco was sitting by you at the show, wasn?t he?

CM: You came out and challenged him, the 2 of you shot the angle and then Rocco came over and sat down next to me with his beer and popcorn and became a fan for your match.

AJ: I think the biggest knee-jerk reaction was that Rocco had a beer and I got to slap it out of his hand. That was a shock thing that even he probably wasn?t expecting. It could have been huge because I?d had the big reign as OPW champion and Rocco still had me on the pedestal that he kept me on, because Rocco says he likes the way I wrestle. It?s old school like he likes and was brought up on. So I was always near the top. I just felt bad that we didnvt have a bigger stage to put it on, especially for his going out. I thought more guys should have shown up that he helped in the past. But it was big and I felt honored that he asked me. There weren?t a lot of other guys at the time with the history to do it, so it meant a lot to me to do what was, at the time, his last match. That was an honor to do it and then he put me over. I think I was trying again at the end to put him over and the other guys didn?t understand what I was doing. I kept thinking "Sit down!" They all came in the ring and I kept saying "Sit Down! Sit down!" because I wanted to be the one to raise his hand in front of everybody. Because he?s done so much for me. If it weren?t for him, I wouldn?t have gotten to do half the things I?ve done in wrestling. The match was good. I thought we all got a lot of moves in and big spots in. Probably one of the only matches where following the choreography really meant something because he set it up the way he wanted so he could do something. I thought it was a good match, I just thought it could have been one of the biggest matches that TPW ever had, but it?s tough to get that kind of draw now. It would have been cool to have a cage.

CM: When TPW finally got a regular place again, in October, you had your first true one-on-one match with Romero Contreras. Any memories of that? TPW was at the Deep End for that.

AJ: No, I don?t even remember the match. I remember they were building stuff up before the Deep End closed down again and it was going to be me & Romero, but I don?t remember wrestling him at that point. Me & Romero were putting together a whole bunch of little things at that time and it might have been one of those. Our matches seemed to get thrown in there. Perhaps it had to do with our storyline at the time because we acknowledged that he used to be Manservant and he used to "be gay" (and he was the gay one of the group, I was the Superstar...). I thought it could have been built up to a big match, but by the time we got started, a big match never came about. I don?t remember wrestling him one-on-one in anything that meant anything.

CM: Any memories of losing the TPW title to Outcast Kenny Campbell?

AJ: I remember the match. The aftermath sucked because he walked out with the belt I laid down for. For a while there, I would wrestle a guy, he would leave. I put over John O?Malley and he left. I put Outcast over and he left. It shows I didn?t mind putting over anybody, but when they beat me and then leave the company, that kind of sucked. I had worked a lot to build up my character over the years and they kind of like rape you when they walk out. Everyone should lay down on their way our or they just kind of show no respect for anyone else or the company that has helped them out. I remember we both came out as heels and he was getting cheered at the end.

CM: Yeah, you seem to have that effect on people, which I?ll get to when we get to your retirement match. I never have quite understood it.

AJ: It shows that you?ve got wrestlers and you?ve got workers. Kenny was a wrestler. He had great moves that I was would never be able to match. I was a worker. I have the charisma, psychology, and ability to get a crowd heated that he will never be able to match. He had better moves, but my stuff got him cheered at the end as a heel and I was the bigger heel at the end so that made me successful with that incident. And then he left. And especially, when you leave with the title and you leave in the middle of storylines, I have no respect for those guys. I put him over and he walks out.

CM: How did the tag team with Sudden Impact come about and was the team?s name actually your idea?

AJ: I think it was my idea. I think it was one of the ten that I shot at Rocco and he kind of liked. I can?t remember how it came about. It?s another one of those things where, if there are no big stars, the guys who are big stars have to help bring the other guys up. That?s one of the things we thought with Sudden Impact. He?s got pretty decent moves, he just has to work on little things in the ring. He?s probably got better moves than I do, when he gives suplexes or takes them. He just needs help in the charisma area. I told Rocco, "Let me take a bottom guy off the totem pole." I can?t remember if being with Sudden Impact specifically was my idea or his. But I said "Let me tag with him and we can go through the whole "I?m at THIS LEVEL, you?re at this level." thing and we can work at it and make it funny." Rocco liked it. It was great. I think Sudden Impact improved some, just getting to move around in the ring and getting some charisma. I hated the way it ended. Sexy Bologna was my idea. I watched a BET comedy show a few nights before we actually created a name and the guy kept saying "Sexy Bologna" throughout his whole routine. Because he was sexy and was a little bit of everything. I thought maybe that was how we could be looked at. A little bit of charisma. A little bit of moves. Definitely like bologna, a mixture of everything all together.

CM: You had another one-on-one match with Romero. This was after Deuce Rodriguez & Rick Styles had left. I remember at the time you said to me that you felt like they had just slammed it together and you wished they would have drawn it out.

AJ: Yeah, I think it was just to fill a card. Our roster was so thin at the time. There was never a big buildup. At this time, Rocco was booking so that it seemed like everybody had some kind of angle. Guys would end up having to wrestle each other and get things across. It just so happened that me & Romero came out again in a match that didn?t have anything at stake. I remember he hit me square in the nose with some Mexican morocco. That hurt real bad. But that was basically it. Not enough wrestlers in the back to fill a card, so matches like that are going to have to happen eventually.

CM: What led to your decision to retire from full-time competition?

AJ: The whole idea for me & Sudden Impact was to do a whole new thing. I was supposed to lose a Loser-Leaves-TPW match. I was going to come back the next week as Sudden Impact #5322. It?s the whole Son of Bolo thing. We were going to be a whole lot more than the Son of Bolo gimmick, though. I was going to be breathing hard under the mask, lift it up, take some deep breaths and then go on. I was going to come out in a paper bag with holes cut out for eyes for a while. The crowd would obviously know it was me again, even see my face. Just do stuff like this to give it another angle that wasn?t in the title picture. It was just another off-the-wall idea that I told to Rocco...actually, I think I told Romero and he told Rocco and Rocco liked it so much he didn?t wait for me to come back at him with it. They end up picking New Canada for us to lose the tag team titles to. I did the match. I lost. Everything was still going according to plan. The following Monday my dad got killed. I?d given everything I had to wrestling. I?d put it ahead of so many things. I realised that I hadn?t gotten to do a lot of stuff I wanted to with my son or my family. So many weekends I had stayed in Tulsa wrestling where I could have went and spent some time with my dad. There wasn?t money coming out of wrestling now. And money was never an issue, but before, the money that I earned, the $20 or so, paid for an evening out with the family and the other guys after the show and we all got to do something. Now I was having to pay for my son to come see me wrestle. My wife was against that, so he didn?t get to come see me half the time. So half the time I was leaving everyone at the house to go wrestle a show and then get back. I was dreading it. And when the crowds got down, even though I try to give my all for every match, to wrestle in front of 20 people or 30 people, you just dread it. I dreaded wrestling, even though I wanted all 20 or 30 people to get their money?s worth out of it. I dreaded it all week until I arrived at the show, then I?d have a blast doing it, then as soon as I got in the car and was driving home, I was already dreading it the next week. And it would be the same thing. I?d dread it until I walked in the door. I?d given up a lot of things for friendships and put friendships way above everything. When my dad got killed, all these guys I thought of as my high close friends, I didn?t hear from any of them. I had plans with one of the wrestlers to help him with his work. I called and canceled with him, because I had things I had to deal with. I wasn?t wanting a pity party. But I thought as friends, and I thought I had stepped up as a friend like this in the past, I would have heard from somebody. I didn?t hear from anybody until almost a week after the funeral happened. I got a e-mail and then one of the guys and another called me the day after that. So I just realised I had to get my priorities straight. I needed to focus on my kids and my family and the stuff that?s there. I think my feelings were hurt because these were the guys who were some of my closest friends and it got to it, they weren?t there. One of the guys talked with me about his situation and I can understand that, but I even had my wife call a couple of them. I don?t want to sound selfish. When a guy had a family member die before, my wife & I were the ones who got together and had people throw in some money and make sure his family got arrangements. I didn?t get that. And it?s not that I was looking for that, I just thought that it came with the close friendship and compassion. So I just had to reprioritise. And it?s not cost me any of those friendships. I still consider those guys friends. They?re just not the highest priority and held in high regard as in the past. And I?ve never told any of them this, so I hope when they read this, it will sink in. We?re all friends so let?s be there for each other. I could never go back to wrestling every week. If they go to every other week, then that might be something where I could come back regularly. I love filling in at the shows. The church shows, the show in Verdigris this weekend. That show cost some money to just to go out and get my license again. But that?s the reason I got out, because I didn?t hear from anybody. And if it hadn?t been for the stipulations in that match with me losing the loser leave TPW, I would have come back and put somebody over. But I figured that was the perfect spot. I didn?t walk out with a belt, like I hated the other guys doing, and I didn?t walk out in the middle of a storyline. It was just the perfect time to get out.

CONCLUSION

CM: Given that New Canada were the top serious heels at the time, as opposed to Sudden Impact who was a tweener at worst and you who were a comedic heel, were you surprised that they got all the face pops and face reactions from the crowd in that match?

AJ: I thought it might be like when I wrestled Big Daddy, but I didn?t know it would be them going total face and us going total heel. AWOL and John Davis would have been the 2 guys I would have probably picked to put over in my last match. They were the vets at that time and they still are along with Rocco since his return after I left. It is there turn to lead TPW and they are the best at what they do with their role in TPW at that time also. I don?t think I was given a choice on my opponents that night, but Rocco made the right choice. AWOL?s been there forever just like myself. And Jon?s been working hard. I couldn?t believe the reaction though. Jon told me later that he couldn?t believe the reaction either. It?s another compliment towards Rocco, Bolo, Renegade, all the guys I learned so much from. I took everything I learned from them and look what it did in that match. Plus it stamped an exclamation point that I was and had always been the top heel. Pro wrestling is hard for me at some points because I always loved other sports where you have clear winners and losers. It was always easy to tell how you gage yourself in those sports because if you do good you get the "W." In pro wrestling you have to go by crowd reaction to judge and that is still unclear because you don?t know if it is how good you did your role or how good the other guy does his as to their reaction. Face vs. face or heel vs. heel matches are tough on wrestlers, but you can judge yourself by the crowd reaction as to if you get booed more in heel vs. heel matches or cheered more in face vs. face matches. So I think I can say I am definitely 2 wins and no losses in those type of matches from this year. But even though I got booed more in the match against New Canada, it doesn?t take anything away from AWOL and John Davis, because from what I understand and saw a few weeks later, those 2 did redefine themselves as the best heels in TPW the very next week after that match.

CM: I?m going to throw some names at you here of some people we haven?t had much of a chance to talk about, but that you had matches against or who were serious players at the time. Let?s start with Steve Hartley.

AJ: Hartley was the best manager. I always thought I was good on the mic, but there was no way I could ever touch Hartley when Hartley was in his prime. One time right before he went out, Hartley was handed a golf club by Rocco and told to make a story about that. Hartley went out there and made up some story about playing golf with Michael Jordan that day and got over with that. Hartley was the best. Pound for pound, slot for slot, or job for job in all the years that I?ve been around here, Hartley was one of the 3 best guys and best worker that?s been around here that I?ve ever been associated with. I always thought that if any of the federations back in the day had gotten the chance to see him on the mic, he would have been snatched up before anybody else - wrestlers included.

CM: Red Eagle.

AJ: Red Eagle was the vet. He was the ultimate face. But he became the same kind of heel that I was. He got over as a heel, but I think it was harder because he was so much bigger than I was. Pound for pound there was nobody better as a face. He & Big Daddy were right there as the top 2 faces that ever wrestled on the indy scene. Then he would do that coward role as a heel and I think it was hard for people to believe when he?s standing a foot and a half taller than his opponent and 100 lbs. heavier and he?s being a coward. I think that went against him as a heel, but as a face he could get anyone to pop and get people livened up just like Big Daddy.

CM: Heather Savage.

AJ: Heather steals my heat - that is the inside joke between us. I?ve never been a fan of women wrestlers, but Heather was probably one of the best ones. I liked her and Vanessa. Heather was into it. She worked out, worked on her body so she could take it to the next level. Her work ethic was untouched by any wrestler. Her personality was even better. She always steal me and Bull?s tag team gimmicks and tried to tag with me to get heat in mix tag matches - that was the joke, but other than that her work ethic is what stands out more than anything else with her.

CM: Pete Maguire.

AJ: Pete was one of the nicer guys I know. I was never one to have anything to say or get in the middle of all the controversy that went around. I still like Pete, even though he doesn?t get along with Rocco and Rocco?s the boss. He always had nothing but nice things to say about me or to me. If he said anything bad about me it never got back to me. He had a love for it and loved doing it and I respect him for getting out when he did. I don?t have any further comment because I don?t know enough about the other stuff afterwards. He was a good ring announcer and was into it at the time.

CM: Northern Threat.

AJ: Northern Threat was one of my most favorite tag teams that have ever been around in OPW. They worked the gimmick. Those guys were a lot like me. They didn?t have all the moves, but they could work their gimmick to the max. Luc has one of the best punches that anyone has on the indy scene in Oklahoma. They were a real good tag team.

CM: You had one match against a guy who wasn?t around long, but who I liked a lot. Adam LaCroix.

AJ: Adam walked into one of the best gimmicks that I believe Rocco ever came up with. He wasn?t a monster heel, because he didn?t have the size, but he was the technician that was unbeatable. I thought he played the role well. Rocco thought of it and you?ll hear people say that half the characters are made by the booker. Rocco made the character and Adam filled it well. I thought Adam did his stuff real well. I had a blast wrestling him in that match.

CM: Beau Dalton

AJ: Charisma. Beau has good charisma. He knows how to work it. He?s got the little antics down. Probably not the best moves, but he goes out there and he works it. He?ll go out there and do anything to get an angle over. I have the utmost respect for him because he was the OCW champion when SRPW was being formed and even though they had all the differences, he was man enough to come back in and drop the title. I wasn?t at the show where he dropped the title, so I don?t know the circumstances, but I know he was concerned about getting hurt and who was going over and who was doing what to whom. But I?ve got the utmost respect for him because he came back and dropped it. You go out laying on your back.

CM: Karl Davis

AJ: Karl?s one of the strongest freaks I?ve known other than AWOL. He knew his role and he went in it to have fun. He had the most fun doing it. He played his role well. I know I sound like I?m repeating myself, but he didn?t have the most moves. Strength was his thing and he played his role. He did job me & Manservant in Bristow though. He & Big Daddy didn?t give us a move in a match that OCW did in that show. It was Big Daddy?s home town and they were all behind him. The crowd was extremely hot so Big Daddy and Karl got excited and beat the hell out of us. It is funny nowadays and we will always give them grief for totally jobbing us out. But he played his role as a strong guy and he had fun doing it.

CM: The Forsaken

AJ: I don?t think I?ve gotten in the ring with Halo one time. Michael Faith is a heck of a worker. I think he?s a great wrestling technician. Back in the day when he was at his original size, he was a big man and could fly all over the ring. I haven?t wrestled him much since he?s gotten bigger, but he?s a heck of a worker. As far as making moves look devastating, those 2 are probably the best since Body Count.

CM: Sonny C.

AJ: Sonny?s in there with Romero & Justin in that they have obvious talent. I think they were all thrown in because there were so many guys leaving. Instead of working their way into earning a spot, they were rushed into a spot and I think that in doing that sometimes it doesn?t keep them humble because they didn?t get the experience of working with so many vets like some of us others. I think that every once in a while someone needs to come in and be right at the top, but for a while there a lot of guys came in right at the top and they don?t fully understand the psychology of working a match. There has been numerous times that I have heard guys talking their match over in the back and they are concerned they aren?t "getting" as much as the other guy in the match - that is some funny stuff because I hear it and think to myself if they only really understood. It?s all about the crowd and the story - not the moves or amount of moves. But back to Sonny, Sonny?s probably one of the most honest guys I know of. He listens to everything when people try to tell him stuff. He definitely has the physique. He?s kind of got a role, not as deadly as Adam?s, but sort of like Adam?s in that he got to go to the top right at first. I know he?s one of the most nervous guys right before a match. I know that people in the past have suggested that he was going to hurt somebody in the ring, but anybody who knows Sonny knows that Sonny is nervous as heck before every match. But he?s one who has fun. And he?s learning and someday, along with the others, will truly get and it will show when he has matches with guys who have less experience than himself.

CM: Rick Styles.

AJ: He listened. He listened to all the older guys, just like I did. Got their advice and listened. We?re almost the exact same character. He based his on sex and I?m an egomaniac, but it?s the same character. He can work it. He knows how to get after a crowd. He was one of the last veterans. When we lost him, it definitely hurt TPW because after Rick left, I think there?s only a couple who truly understand and know how to work a crowd and can just go out there and have a good match and get anybody over. He was one of the 2 guaranteed heat matches on our card. You knew his match was going to get heat no matter who he wrestled.

CM: Mitch Carter.

AJ: I really don?t know a lot about Mitch. When I first saw Mitch at Owen Park, I thought he was Cade (Sydal) coming back. Mitch was a good guy. He had beef with Justin. That?s why he left, I guess. He listened. I wrestled him one time and he had a little guy?s point of view.

CM: Shadow of Death

AJ: SOD plays the perfect character role, if he were really Mountain Man?s size. The guy has heart. He?s a whole lot better than what people give him credit for. He listens. He?s got that character role. I still remember Bull & I were getting a push. Bull was hurt, so I had to wrestle both SODs in a handicap match. They?re only 150 or 160 pounds each. At the time, I was 325 or 330. Before the match, I asked them, "OK, guys, what moves do you want?". That way they can get their moves in because Rocco had the rest of it fixed up for us. I said, "Give me some moves that make you look strong." I didn?t want to come out and make someone look bad. I wasn?t a big fan of winning a one-on-two match. But I understood the purpose of it, plus the booker booked the match, so you do what the booker says. He came up to me and said "Dude, why don?t I just walk up and slam you?" That was funny. But he?s there all the time, even when he can?t work. I think he?s been hurt lately. S.O.D. deserves more credit than what he does. He is definitely a hardcore wrestler.

CM: Draven Cross

AJ: Draven?s more agile then you think when you first see him. I think he?s got talent. I think he?s kind of at that level that a lot of the other guys are because there?s not a lot of veterans to learn from anymore. He?s got a lot of good moves, but I think he?s at that level with Sonny and Romero & Justin. If there were guys there like Bolo, Renegade, Eagle, you could go back and talk to them about your match and learn so much more. But as a big guy, I think he?s well advanced over what I had at his point in the ring. And he?ll do that crazy funny stuff, so if the right guys are there, he could be better than I was.

CM: Deuce Rodriguez.

AJ: I didn?t know a lot about Deuce and I only remember wrestling him one time and that was at the Creek Nation show. I think he played his role. He came in and did what the boss told him to. That?s about all I know about Deuce. I don?t remember watching any of his matches and I only had that one match against him. That was at the Creek Nation festival a year or two ago. He was wrestling me & Manservant and he did a good job.

CM: Ray Martinez.

AJ: Ray?s one of the best announcers that we?ve ever had. In fact, I think he IS the best announcer we?ve ever had. He gets into it. He gets the crowd going. He gets a little more crowd interaction and he knows he?s there to help the show and not be the star of the show. And I think that?s what a ring announcer is. He has his own music, but he doesn?t have his own sign or his own shirt or anything like that. As far as getting the crowd going, I think he?s the best we?ve had with Pete coming in second. Pete was the same way. He knew the show wasn?t about him, but made the show better.

CM: Justin Lee

AJ: Justin & I see differently on a match. He?s more about the moves in a match and I?m more about the charisma and the things leading up to the moves. Justin has some of the better moves. Justin has the talent to be one of the better guys, if he follows his role. The original Broken Arrow Bad Boy, where he was one of the members of the Heatseekers, was one of the best gimmicks that I liked..

CM: Romero Contreras

AJ: Romero has the talent to be one of the guys to fill my spot in the next few years. Along with Rocco, who?s one of the last veterans left, they could lead TPW into the future. I think Romero, Sonny and Justin have the talent to be the top 3 guys on down the line if independent wrestling is able to keep going. If Rocco stays around they need to learn from him and listen to what he says.

CM: Rocco Valentino

AJ: The best. Worker. Promoter. Any of the guys who say they left OPW or TPW because of Rocco are just jealous. Anybody who ever says Rocco is an egomaniac and books himself at the top only because he is the boss I tell them "Why not?". He was always one of the best faces when he faced and when he turned heel there wasn?t anyone better either. The top guys were always at the top when it was ran correctly. I always have and always will respect Rocco and consider him a good friend. I was smart enough to see how everything worked and never became buddy buddy with Rocco while doing wrestling because I valued the friendship. All the guys who ever became that ended up stabbing him in the back in the long run because they couldn?t separate the friendship from the biz. Hopefully when one of us or both of us end up getting totally out of this business then we will become closer friends and hang out more. Rocco always treated me with the upmost respect and friendship so I have a hard time believing any stories that Rocco did as much wrong as anyone claims he ever did. Rocco ran a business and with a business if you don?t make money then you don?t have a business - so who is to second guess him? I admit I had questions of what was going on before, but Rocco always worked it out or explained it to me. Whether any wrestler around this area wants to believe it or not - Rocco Valentino is one of the big reasons why they have ever been able to do pro wrestling in this area for so long.

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CM: Did you ever consider trying to get a try out with WWE?

AJ: No, I never even considered it. I never even sent in a tape to WWE. I wasn?t willing to go the extra mile on my physique that a lot of guys took to get to that level. I wasn?t going to become a juice monkey to make it. I wanted to put a focus on my family, even before I cut back to part time. I wanted to be there for everything they did. I also don?t think that by them (anybody making it to the next level) getting there, they should come back and downplay anything that we did here. I?ve only sent in one tape ever to one organization. Juggalo Championship Wrestling. Just because they had the stupid funny gimmicks that I would have loved being a part of. But I never heard back from them, so go figure. I knew they did shows periodically at the time. Even if I would have made it anywhere I don?t know if I could have done it. I don?t think I could have ever been apart from my wife and kids, let alone missing out on anything my kids would have done in life from playing a tee ball game to a football game. That means more to me.

CM: What was your favorite skit that Rocco let you do and what was your favorite that he did not let you do?

AJ: The favorite one was the Christmas gifts because we got to hack on everyone we wanted to in the back. I think everyone played along well except Justin. I think he took offence to us for a while. Justin had just been given full power by John Crow. And our legitimate thing was we were going to bring out a telephone book and a rope and a 25 pound weight and then Justin could stand on the book and tie the rope around his neck so that he had the legitimate size and weight of the heavyweight that he thought he was. That was the only gift we didn?t do. But everyone else blended in and it was fun. Giving Dexter his AOL CDs so people didn?t have to actually see him before they went on a date with him. That one or the Indian Show one where we got the made up Indian names as we came in the building. We said we wanted to be like all the other Indians in the audience so the first thing we saw we named ourselves after like Ugly-Boy-Making-Love-To-Dog or something like that. I can?t remember. That one was fun. As for the ones that we weren?t allowed to do, near the 4th of July we wanted to do a bit where our opponents would defeat us and then take firecrackers and shove them in Manservant?s butt and light them. That was good. Or when we were having the feud with Big Daddy & Karl, we wanted to build those box traps like you see in the cartoons. Big box traps and put things like pieces of fried chicken in them and then hide behind the ring and wait for them to come down and try to catch them in the traps.

CM: Is there anything that you never got to do that you really wish you could have done in your career?

AJ: Beat down a midget! Rocco knows I wanted to have a midget on the show and be in my heel mode and come out and beat the midget down. Other than that I think I?ve accomplished everything I wanted to get out of wrestling.

CM: Do you have any....I don?t want to say final words, but any words for your fans who have supported you through your career?

AJ: It was a blast. I just thank them for everything. I achieved everything I wanted to. I hope I helped people out. I hope I was a good friend to everybody I had a relationship with. Without their support I would never have gotten where I did
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Q: You said you accomplished everything you wanted from wrestling? How would you have done that?

A: I accomplished more than I ever thought I would. When I first got into it I thought I never would do more than come out in some high school gym or armory and wrestle in front of more than 50 people. I never thought I would get to perform in front of more than 1000 people on at least 15-20 times, let alone dream of being in front of 4 or 5 thousand people with the Freebirds. My son has gotten to see probably 90% percent of my matches and that means a lot to me since I know he loves seeing them so much. I also never would have done anything without the support of my wife. She was there for probably more than 90% of my matches and was always supporting me and trying to persuade me to go for higher goals with it. I can honestly say that one of the high points in my career was the Fairgrounds Pavilion show with the WWE stars and as I walked down the aisle to the ring she was there at the side panels going as nuts for me as any of the others fans were also. I have realized through all the wrestling that she is truly my best friend.